5th Ed - Eldar - Warhammer 40,000 - The Games - Warmonger Board - Message Board

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

5th Ed - Eldar

Author	Comment
deFL0	5th Ed - Eldar	Lead	[-]
Posts: 3596 (05/07/08 13:12:52) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None So my Eldar army will need a serious rebuild in 5th ed. My list (much like a lot of Eldar) is pretty light on troops. (I use two min jetbike squads). So about as light on troops as possible: I think Eldar are going to radically change to be large troop based forces. So what do you think of the trrop choices in 5th ed? - Rangers/Pathfinders - Wraithguard - Jetbikes - Dire Avengers - Guardians Pete
ZiggyQubert		#1	[-]
Posts: 425 (05/07/08 14:31:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I feel like dire Avengers in transports and jetbikes are good for going out and capturing objectives, while wraithguard and pathfinders would be mutch better used to hold objectives neer your starting location. I feel my eldar will change to something more along the lines of this... Farseer / eldrad Autarc? Harliquins Firedragons in serpent? Pathfinders Pathfinders Dire Avengers DireAvengers Bikes? Prism Prism Something along thoes lines ------------------ - Brookie
Ronen Warrior		#2	[-]
Posts: 5927 (05/07/08 14:50:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	With the changes to skimmers and shots counting as glancing only on a 5+, I think you'll see a return of warwalkers (especially with the new flanking rule, since they have scout right?)
Ronen Warrior		#3	[-]
Posts: 5928 (05/07/08 14:52:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	With regard to troops, i think dare avengers (in a servant) and bikes will be the shiznit. Avengers for their "survivability" in h2h, and both for their speed to snatch objectives at the end of the game.
Mannahnin		#4	[-]
Posts: 447 (05/07/08 15:27:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Guardian Defenders with heavy weapon platforms, and likely an Avatar for Fearlessness and counter-assault, will also be good in the role of holding your own objectives. Allen Hernandez (Blackmoor on Dakka Dakka and TWF) did very well at last year's GTs with a mixed shooty Eldar list featuring this combo + some mobile elements. "At the center of the Universe is a loving heart that continues to beat and that wants the best for every person. Anything that we can do to help foster the intellect and spirit and emotional growth of our fellow human beings, that is our job. Those of us who have this particular vision must continue against all odds. Life is for service. - Fred Rogers (a.k.a., "Mister Rogers") 1928-2003 The Yuku text/post editor is a piece of shit. Let me say that again: The Yuku text/post editor is a piece of shit.
ZiggyQubert		#5	[-]
Posts: 426 (05/07/08 15:27:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ronen - As of the rules I saw it's not "counting as glancing only on a 5+" its Ignore the shot on a 5+ ------------------ - Brookie
adirangan	What is important?	#6	[-]
Posts: 22 (05/07/08 20:12:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Where does this chain of logic break? A) 5th edition lists will feature many units of troops. B) Troops are (in general) easy to kill, and so resilience will be important C) Thus players will favor big units of troops (orcs) or feel-no-pain dudes (nurgle/necrons) or dudes protected by skimmers (dire avengers) or cover (pathfinders) D) That means that the metagame choice will be scoring units that can handle resilient troops. For example, one my consider daemonettes or genestealers. E) That means that the poor metagame choices will be units vulnerable to such units. For example, wraithlords might take a back seat due to the preponderance of rending. F) Another poor metagame choice will be predators and other armor 12-13 anti-tank vehicles (like dreadnaughts), as many troop choices sport antitank weaponry capable of taking out these point sinks. G) So, given that most armies will not feature a dedicated suite of anti-tank weaponry (instead favoring anti-troop weaponry), super-resilient vehicles will make a comeback. In other words, the orc horde or the nurgle horde may not have any way to deal with a monolith (or two land-raiders) effectively (remember that s8 power fists and missile launchers cannot destroy armor 14 vehicles any more). H) So perhaps Fire Prims and gaurdian squads (with indirect fire template weapons) will be the best heavy support choices? The template weapon dark reaper exarch doesn't seem bad either (but I don't know how expensive he is). I) Thus, once you have those heavy support options, your army may naturally take a "come to me" attitude, and you can take the appropriate HQ and troops (decent counterassault, and one or two tiny units of jetbikes to grab far away objectives seems necessary to me as well). J) So does that mean 2-3 units of defend/bladestorm avengers in wave serpents + 2 units of jetbikes + 1 unit of harlequins (which can ride in one of the avengers' transports if necessary)? Incidentally, pathfinders just don't seem good to me. Do they kill 3 orks a turn? With enemy assault units "running" at them, the pathfinders may not last long.
Mannahnin		#7	[-]
Posts: 448 (05/08/08 05:09:51) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think jetbikes + Warlock with spear and Destructor will be a good objective-grabbing unit, which can also effectively damage horde and vehicular targets. Regarding point G, remember that the leaked PDF shows vehicles as giving up half points if they're damaged at all (even Weapon Destroyed) at the end, like in 3rd edition. Combine this with them being non-scoring, and there may really be no need to kill those really tough vehicles, as long as you can deal with any transported contents. "At the center of the Universe is a loving heart that continues to beat and that wants the best for every person. Anything that we can do to help foster the intellect and spirit and emotional growth of our fellow human beings, that is our job. Those of us who have this particular vision must continue against all odds. Life is for service. - Fred Rogers (a.k.a., "Mister Rogers") 1928-2003 The Yuku text/post editor is a piece of shit. Let me say that again: The Yuku text/post editor is a piece of shit.
ZiggyQubert		#8	[-]
Posts: 428 (05/08/08 06:32:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	adirangan wrote: Incidentally, pathfinders just don't seem good to me. Do they kill 3 orks a turn? With enemy assault units "running" at them, the pathfinders may not last long. They should kill 2-3 orcs a turn, they should cause 2-3 wounds on just about anything (thats a squad of 5 mind you) and they do force a unit to come to them to kill them (as shooting won't be verry effective) pluss they can get away if necessary (they ignore cover when moving) true they will vaporize in CC but otherwise they should be good (although bikes may be better) ------------------ - Brookie
deFL0		#9	[-]
Posts: 3597 (05/08/08 07:31:54) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes and no you still have to shut down things like leman russes or they are going to absolutely trash you in 5th ed. Plus land raiders (especially crusaders) are really going to be difficult to shut down and are likely to drop a very potent payload on your front door step, especially with assult ramps. With Eldar: - Rangers/Pathfinders - Are going to be great quarter holders, although I don't think cleanse is going to be a major mission. That said, I think snipers get a big boon in 5th ed because they pick up rending. I'm honestly not sure how that affects Pathfinders as they already basically have that, but from a point persepctive they can now choose to be pinned an get an additional -1 cover save. So even in woods they are a 2+ cover. - Wraithguard - So Brookie is slowly convincing me these guys are actually a pretty strong choice. With the screening rule I can see walking them up behind a guardian meat shield and unleashing some fury when they are close. - Jetbikes - First off they are much more resilient than most people give them credit for. They are T4, 3+ save with a twin linked assault 2 S4 weapon. Plus they can pick up a 3+ cover save, move really fast and get a warlock. I think with LOS cover, you really are not going to be able to run that many small squads any more. Instead, I think you run really big squads and do tactics like fortune and turbo boost 12 jetbikes and a warlocks. Then move your entire army up behind them. Jetbikes can then jump over the wall to shoot and then jump back for safety, or if you are playing someone like marines and don;t care if they get the 4+ save you can just shoot through them. This might be the way to use dire avengers in waveserpents too as I don't think you will be able to shoot under the wave serpent anymore, so a jet bike screen allows you to shoot at enemies with a higher level of protections, and not take any return fire. - Dire Avengers - I expect the fish of fury tactics to be pretty prevailent, also defend and such gets a lot better if you are trying to hold objectives. Although Eldar in general are going to have a tough time as they can lose their exarchs and become a pretty lame squad. This fact alone might increase the use of phoenix lords, as the redundancy might be key for certain squads. - Guardians - I think these are the unsung heros of next edition of Eldar. To me Large squads of guardians and an Avatar are going to be a corner stone of many Eldar lists. Fearless guardians can really mob a unit up indefinitely, and 8 points a pop they are basically expendable. Also, troops being scoring to the last man is often going to mean the warlock. Another intersting concept I've been kicking around is the thought of storm guardians in falcons. Not really a power unit on it's own, but if you do something like toss a cheap autarch or fuegan in there with a fusion fun you have a unit with 3 melta guns, a reliable delivery system, and a unit that it really maneuverable, resilient, can tank shock units off of objects and score. Seems like a strong tactic to me. Although falcons are much less resilient, I think their achillies heel is going to be Tua. I believe their path finders can adjust a unit's cover save, make falcons tin cans to things like rail guns. Although, I kinda like that pathfinders are going to have a more uses as I like the concept of them. Then again Tua aren't goign to be a much used army IMO. Anyway, I think we are going to be seeing a lot of Eldar armies switch over to fish of fury tactics including 11 guardians with a scatter laser in a wave serpent. Another point on Eldar is tank hunting AV 14. To me you really only have a couple units. Wraith guard, fire dragons, warlocks, fire prisms Autrachs, swooping hawks and bright lances on the waveserpent. This is why I think you will see a lot of waveserpents, as the twin linked bright lance will be invaluable, and the loss of the defensive weapon means most people now have the points to spend on it. Pete
ZiggyQubert		#10	[-]
Posts: 430 (05/08/08 08:44:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Although Eldar in general are going to have a tough time as they can lose their exarchs and become a pretty lame squad Keep in mind that the Exarcs usaly have a 3+ save where the regular dudes have a 4+ so the exarch is better protected, and this might actualy come into play now... ------------------ - Brookie
deFL0		#11	[-]
Posts: 3600 (05/08/08 09:02:30) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The big thing to remember about rangers/pathfinders too is the pinning. In an Aplpha scenerio, an end of game pin can be the difference between winning and losing and any give army (with some exceptions) are going to have 6 scoring units max. So if you can kill a couple and pin the crap out others,it can be very disruptive. good point, but do they actually get their ammor with the 5th ed mixed armor save rules? Pete
Ronen Warrior		#12	[-]
Posts: 5932 (05/08/08 09:04:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I dunno about pinning mr pete. Most armies have some sort of modification to their leadership, or simply have great leadership / are fearless and won't worry about pinning. Definately not worth counting on.
deFL0		#13	[-]
Posts: 3601 (05/08/08 09:30:38) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	True fearless troops do not have to take morale and orks /nids have a special rule, but other than that everyone is on strict leadership. With pinning you are -1 if you are below 50%. Sure marines, and Necrons are LD 10 but Eldar, Tua, IG, etc are not very good. Plus nids will probably have a lot less synapse around now too. I agree it's less of tactic you can rely on, but it can be really devestating agisnt some armies, and that might be worth taking them alone. Pete
ZiggyQubert		#14	[-]
Posts: 431 (05/08/08 10:32:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Pete last I was you assigned hits to different models then rolled to wound and save for each model differently.. so yes the exarch would get his save. also on pinning I thaught I's seen something where you were an -1 to your check for every wound caused, don't know if that was just my memory or even made it to the final rules but could be good... ------------------ - Brookie
adirangan		#15	[-]
Posts: 23 (05/08/08 11:50:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Re: Storm Guardians in falcon -- I think storm guardians are 10+, not 5+ (but I could be wrong). falcon only transports 6, right? Nevertheless, wave serpents are probably just fine for the fusion gun delivery service. Re: Fish of Fury tactics -- I think under the new rules you can only embark or disembark during the movement phase. So infantry can't "run" (in the shooting phase) onto a transport. In addition, "crew stunned" results means no disembarking, so spirit stones are a must. It also seems as though troops are no longer "entangled" when their vehicle is destroyed (rather, they take a pinning check). I feel that together this means that star engines might be worth it. I can imagine a scenario where first turn I move up 18"+12" with my wave serpent full of dudes (or a falcon with some harlequins in it), and just sit there. Unless the enemy can destroy the vehicle and assault/destroy the infantry inside, I can shoot/fleet+assault with the infantry. If this tactic is viable, I don't see tau broadsides being much of a threat, as a single unit is ~250-300 points or so. This is about the same cost as the wave-serpent+fire_dragons/dire_avengers that can zip up and reliably take them out.
deFL0		#16	[-]
Posts: 3606 (05/08/08 12:41:56) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Agreed, if fast vehicle go down to 18", star engines are really going to be worth it. For one it turns them into a cruise missile with the ramming rules, but more importantly 24" was always just barely enough. Also, if you use bikes you will need to be able to keep up with them. From what I've seen skimmers block LOS now so you can use them as terrain to do jetbike pop out attacks. Pete
Mannahnin		#17	[-]
Posts: 450 (05/08/08 14:08:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Stunned can't disembark… Skimmer block LOS… no Entangled… Fuckin' 3rd edition déjà vu is making me dizzy. "At the center of the Universe is a loving heart that continues to beat and that wants the best for every person. Anything that we can do to help foster the intellect and spirit and emotional growth of our fellow human beings, that is our job. Those of us who have this particular vision must continue against all odds. Life is for service. - Fred Rogers (a.k.a., "Mister Rogers") 1928-2003 The Yuku text/post editor is a piece of shit. Let me say that again: The Yuku text/post editor is a piece of shit.
adirangan		#18	[-]
Posts: 24 (05/08/08 22:50:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Do warlocks on bikes get a 3+ armor save and +1 toughness? They are ~50 or so points each (with the heavy flamer thing). I don't think that they have to join the farseer they are purchased with (in other words, I don't think they are technically his "retinue", but rather another unit that can be bought if the farseer is an HQ choice). It seems to me that a little unit of 4-5 of these guys for ~250 points is pretty potent. They can probably deal with about 15-20 orks in one shooting phase, and their witchblades/singingspears should be able to deal with many vehicles as well. Is this right? A) on average, against an armor 12 skimmer the group of 5 warlocks has 15 attacks, 2.5 of which hit, and 1.25 of which should penetrate (about 0.4 should glance), reliably preventing the vehicle from doing anything next turn B) on average, against an armor 14 tank the group of 5 warlocks has 15 attacks, 7.5 hit, 1.2 should penetrate (about 1.2 should glance), again preventing the vehicle from doing anything next turn. C) against most troops they should be able to drop about 4 templates, touching anywhere from 4-20 dudes. The way the template rules work (I think) is that you count up the hits for each flamer individually, and THEN roll to wound and remove models. That means that if you are shooting at a group of 30 orks, and there are 7 of them clumped together, you should be able to move your warlocks so that each one can flame those same 7 orks. Those 5*7=35 hits can easily torch the entire ork unit (even though the other 21 may be spread out and far away).
Flavius Infernus		#19	[-]
Posts: 2541 (05/09/08 04:34:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In 4th ed the effectiveness of the spearlock unit is debatable. Some people swear by them, others see them as a point sink. I don't think 5th ed will change their capabilities much? -Tom
deFL0		#20	[-]
Posts: 3608 (05/09/08 10:03:30) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I run 5 warlocks on jetbikes, 1 with embolden, 2 with singing spears. They are nasty with a farseer with with fortune and mind war. A very useful squad that can do so many things. I think they are even better with 6 warlocks, and you take enhance but they start getting expensive. Pete

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

5th Ed - Eldar

5th Ed - Eldar

Quick Reply