Thoughts on 5th ed

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deFL0	Thoughts on 5th ed	Lead	[-]
Posts: 3843 (08/01/08 06:25:15) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None So I played two games last night; both against Orks. The first game was against Lou's, "If I take everything cheese in the Ork codex my list hast to be good" and the scooter's, "Don't buy the hype, Orks Orks, Orks, batlle wagons with death rollas, lootas and Orks". I played a crazy list of 2 farseers, fourtune and doom and mind war on bikes, with 4 X 9 bikes each with a warlock with embolden, fire prism and 6 fire dragons in a waveserpent. First game against Lou I doomed and blasted then assaulted. Rinse and repeat until I ran out of orks. It worked well. Fourtune is nasty, even more so in 5th. BTW the missions in 5th completely change the game. To Lou's credit he had me scared for a turn when all 3 OF HIS SPECIAL CHARACTERS started doing their cheese and locking me down in hth. It's a good thing Lou;s only fields weedy orks that only roll ones. My Eldar on jetbikes that only roll 6s kicked their ass in hth. The game was over when his jumppackers landed on my jetbikes and rolled a 1 on the table (aka they jumped out of a plane and realized they didn't know where the on switch was). Second game with scooter was eye opening. How do you kill all those ORKS!!!! The deathrolla battle wagons are so cheap and really really good. The lootas are pretty devastating no matter what infantry they are shooting at. It makes me realize that in 5th you simply can't shoot a win out of someone. you really have to roll up you sleeves and go get it with some hth troops. I honestly think guard, eldar, and tau are going to have a rough go under the new rules. While armies like Orks and nids are going to rule supreme. Back to the drawing board... Pete
Flavius Infernus		#1	[-]
Posts: 2562 (08/01/08 07:17:38) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Most of my games since I started playing 5th have been against space marines, so I haven't seen a horde army yet. But overall I've been tweaking things toward more templates--especially the flame and large blast ones. But I agree that the high model count armies are now definitely competitive, and even adding template/blast weapons just merely offsets some of their advantage. Plus you have to get really close to use flamer template weapons (except hellhounds). Did your FD exarch have the flamer, Pete? Did you consider Eldritch Storm for the farseers? How did the prism do? -Tom
scooter		#2	[-]
Posts: 501 (08/01/08 08:28:14) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Like I said eariler, the more money you spend on your army, the better it is in 5th ed. Don't like losing? Buy some more models, get more/bigger scoring units. Hurry Up and BUY!!!! You Buy NOW!
The Gunslinger		#3	[-]
Posts: 8688 (08/01/08 09:36:34) The Anomaly More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	at Scooter. I find it hilarious that 1) Pete, the master of cheese (Eldar & Nurgle) is calling me out for cheesiness. And 2) his assumption of special characters = chesse. 40K has been slowly going the way of using special characters to modify army lists, so the special character = cheese is really not the case. You simply have to assume that Ork kommandos can either infiltrate the new way, or with Snotrik, choose any table edge they walk onto. Or also assume that stormboys are super fast, or with Zagstrukk, could deep strike, then assault 6" the same turn ... a very dangerous tactic. I've been lucky so far with rolling hits til last night. Pete is a luck vampire... sucks dice karma at will. A venerable luck sucker. Any & all inuendos implied. Coupled with the fact that Snikrot & his kommandos happened to assault a fortuned jetbike unit, causing them to bounce off, doesn't lend much weight to the Cheese Tosser's accusations. Fortuned T4 3+ Sv Eldar are tough. My mistake was not paying more attention to attacking non-fortuned units. With 5th ed, it's all about the missions. Know the rules, but study the missions for appropriate tactics.
deFL0		#4	[-]
Posts: 3845 (08/01/08 11:29:43) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lol. I just liked how you snowballed me with, "I'm just playing a standard Ork list... I played it last week at the club too." A list built around 3 special characters is hardly "a standard ork list". And yes Karma (aka the pact I struck with the dark lords) punished you for it. Ha ha. I wouldn't say special characters are not inherently cheese but I would say that the only special characters I see people use are the ones that are better point buys than the standard HQs (all of which yours are). And in 5th ed. Orks are the green cheese. They are basically green cheese and spam. But to your point, I woudl probably run a list closer to yours than scooters.... But I'd try to win with them Anyway, Tom... My exarch had crack shot, I wanted to pop a landraider, but really all they ever killed was Waschucka green cheese that Lou obviously used. No I haven;t considered eldritch storm, but I might now. I could see it useful against a lot of opponents, although if I continue to run a mass fire list I think two foutune / doom seers is probably the way to go. I found doom was invaluable in a lot of situations and I would have like to have had 2 squads doomed instead of the mindwar. Mindwar is actually harder to use now as you are pretty much alway attached to squad so you have to target someone they are targeting. Plus it's only 12" which is too close to orks. Finally, the fire prism... I found it was redundant in my list, and it died quickly (as I forgot that I had the holofields on it... Ooops) That said, they are tricky to use because you want to shoot people in a way that they don; get a cover save while still keeping a cover save. Which is harder to do than I expected. Anyway, they do kill a ton when they hit, and they basically always hit something when you are playing orks. Orks are a damn hard match up for Eldar. Lootas are like "FU Eldar" weapon of choice. I could see a big seer council of a unit of scorpians being in a lot of eldar tourny lists. I honestly think they need to run something like that. Pete
The Gunslinger		#5	[-]
Posts: 8690 (08/01/08 14:47:49) The Anomaly More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm pretty sure I said "my standard Ork list" as I've been playing with that list since the codex came out, so about 8 months now. I like how you word what I use versus what you use. I apparently field cheese (not), but with you it's "I found doom to be invaluable in a lot of situations". You'd be great in marketing. I'm not saying that doom is cheesey, I find very little that deserve that label. I'd label something as a hard list, before I resort to the "cheese" curse as it tends to have negative emotions attached to it, whether it's justified or not. I think I field a tough list (not hard). I've got to wrap my head around the new missions though.
ZiggyQubert		#6	[-]
Posts: 622 (08/02/08 05:11:55) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Lou your "standard list" that you've been playing with, you mean the two games you've played with it? ------------------ - Brookie
Ishmaeil		#7	[-]
Posts: 4 (08/02/08 07:13:33) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Just to add my few pennies... Have you thought about adding a destructor or two to those bike units, coupled with doom, they can be effective against that ork hoarde. Infact the only thing to make a real impact against the green tide for me was the dual flamers off the wraithlord. Also for the FD's, I've found the DB and crack shot combo on the exarch gives the unit some versatility. An aside, mind war is 18" To be honest getting through 180 ish orks is going to be tough if you dont have a pie plate / flamer or two, you just dont have the dice to shoot them off the board, and once orks (or nids for that matter) hit combat they tend to have the edge. Also Eld storm and doom could be effective, again it's the template / blast factor for hoardes.
deFL0		#8	[-]
Posts: 3848 (08/04/08 08:53:39) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The issue is if you use destructor and you don't kill them all you are now stuck in hth.... Even if you do kill them all you are probably still stuck in hth if they waagh. So it usually not something I am tempted by. Also jetbikes are only LD 8. With the new hth rules they are toast if they lose combat. So the re rollable LD is usually a necessary evil. Otherwise I would run enhance. It would help a lot in hth when you do actually get stuck in. Embolden also has the added benefit of re rolling psychic tests, so i you add on a farseer you fix their leadership and help the farseer out. As for eldritch storm I'm excited to give in a try. Especially agaisnt something like lootas. They don't have a nob and have a fairly low LD so I figure if you kill 4 they have to take run check and also a pinning test. Pete
The Gunslinger		#9	[-]
Posts: 8695 (08/04/08 09:35:58) The Anomaly More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Brookie, you always say the same thing whenever I play. The more you say it, the more you sound like a broken record and not a real person. Like your cardboard giant... it's not a real giant. I've tweaked my list to more elite & fragile levels. Only 1 special char. so I can have bikes as Troops. I finally got around to Scooter's advice and will field nob bikers. Solid. Expensive, but solid & a Troop choice cuz I took a 2nd warboss & gave him a bike, PK & attack squig for an extra PK attack. Also bumped up my 3 bike units to 7 each, instead of 5. They go from fairly survivable, to something slightly more. Can't decide what else to field. It's a crappy list, but looks like a lot of fun. Massive problem is lack of high strength shooting, but the bikes have a fair chance of getting to whatever armor I need to bust open. Lootas at S7 aren't enough. I could do a 4 meganob unit in a trukk as something resembling medium range S9 "shooting".
mauleed		#10	[-]
Posts: 6755 (08/05/08 03:40:31) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Pete: Is losing hth really that big of a deal in that case? So they break and run. But odds are the ork player either has to devote resources to hunt them down, or they rally and come back later. Breaking from combat is, I think, only a problem for units that are either very expensive and/or likely to get run down. Ed Maule, Warmonger Club Champion two times running.

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Thoughts on 5th ed

Thoughts on 5th ed